Machi Machi Information Center
(まちまち案内所)
Machi Machi An’naijo (まちまち案内所) means “town information center.” The name is not inaccurate. But it doesn’t even begin to describe what happens here.
First, let’s get a sense of place. Machi Machi (for short) is in Kyōtango, an area about three hours north by train from Kyoto City. It’s a seaside region full of beautiful scenery, farms, forests, and beaches.
At Machi Machi, individuals can come into the cafe and have coffee and donuts or a lunch or dinner. But it also serves businesses of all sizes, along with communities, educational groups, and institutions. It also houses a wide variety of activities and events. Because of this high level of variety, many different kinds of people and groups can interact and meet.
Let me illustrate this variety and volume at which this place operates. Here’s what I observed on a single afternoon, in chronological order from early afternoon to evening.
Small groups of people co-worked on laptops in the downstairs cafe area with coffee, tea, and donuts.
Ogaki-san, from the architecture firm that helped build Machi Machi, was giving a one-on-one consultation. The firm is quite booked with work for a while, but they save an afternoon one day a week when they help people in the area through these consultations.
There was a lunch pop-up with Shiho-san, a business owner that specializes in tofu-making.
As she packed up after lunch, there was a group of students from a local high school testing out craft cola recipes for a school project.
Unexpectedly, a mussel farmer dropped by at the front of the shop with a truckload of extra mussels and oysters to give away to anybody here, because he had too many.
As the chef using the kitchen for a dinner pop-up loaded in for dinner service, he took mussels and oysters to use for staff meal.
An artist, Yoneda-san, was here to attend the art exhibition opening upstairs. Just the day before, he had helped to arrange the shop area downstairs for retail goods from local businesses along with merchandise for the evening pop-up dinner.
Two boys from a local school dropped by to ask Asako-san, the other co-founder and operator of Machi Machi, if they could display some posters advertising an upcoming e-sports event.
Another pop-up chef, Jun-san, who served lunch on Wednesdays, dropped by to share some of his favorite tools for making wagashi (traditional Japanese sweets) with the dinner pop-up chef.
A group of undergraduate students arrived, using the tatami rooms as a share house to sleep for the night during a trip to Kyotango.
It feels a little bit like magic, but it takes intention to pull together a place where people can relax, to choose the right players, and to leave room for fun “happenstance.”
So I'm honored to have had the chance to ask Sakata Makoto, one of the co-founders of Machi Machi, a few questions out of my own curiosity, but also because I feel that his experience in bridging several types of communities and individuals is something that many areas of the world could find inspiring. There's a lot of interest and research on third places in urban environments, but a bit less on third places in rural or suburban regional areas. Still, there’s a lot we can learn from these third places in outlying areas that are applicable to small businesses anywhere.
Editorial note:
Although this was primarily an interview with Sakata-san, Joey, who kindly helped with interpretation, contributed to the conversation, so his additions are a welcome inclusion.
Can you tell us about your personal journey to co-creating Machi Machi?
I grew up in Arakawa-ku, Tokyo, which is considered more lower town [Shitamachi], a local shopping street. There are a lot of people who go to this old Japanese shopping street. There were a lot of individually-owned shops, and I really liked that atmosphere. It’s more diverse, very lively, and human relationships are much warmer. This was about 30 years ago. I've been missing places like these shopping streets. So I thought, how do we preserve these things? How can we have this kind of vibe?
Now, there are more chains and systems in place which decrease the number of these kinds of small businesses.
“The thing that we deliberately try to do is to create an environment that allows people to slow down a little bit.”
Sakata: I remember, around twenty years ago, Starbucks coming to Tokyo. It was the first time I saw a change like this. At the time, there were a lot of small cafes, which were operated as small businesses. But it's changing. It's like everyone is using Starbucks nowadays.
A Kissaten is kind of like a small cafe. It feels public; everyone can go there, from a businessman to someone who's just living in the area — they can all go.
If you look at the countryside, there’s still this kind of connection, but the areas are getting more developed, more city-like — even here. I think around 30 years ago there was a Shotengai [shopping street] with about 50 or 60 small shops, but it’s changing. And it’s because we are so mobile with cars and other technologies.
South of this area, there is a big market and more of these kind of convenience-driven stores.
So, there’s a nostalgic feeling that I’m missing, because everything is the same if there are no small shops and everything is the same as the big city. So that’s why I wanted to create this small business in this area.
Jen: If you can describe what's missing, why it is nostalgic to be able to go to small shops owned by individual owners — and what exactly is missing, comparing a Kissaten to a Starbucks?
Sakata: I think it’s too much speed. I mean, if you look at Starbucks, you go to the cafe, check your email or something, and often leave within only 30 minutes.
But if you look at some Kissaten, it’s a small café — many people stay 2 or 3 hours because it’s more of a kind of lifestyle. I mean, they are communicating, chatting, and sometimes meeting different people that they didn’t already know, and connecting there. Sometimes, if that happens, they make business connections or something. So it’s a small community. There were lots of such public small communities before. But now, everything is about speed; you don’t have time to be connecting with each other. We like to be consuming, and it feels like speed is prioritized over relationships.
Jen: Maybe the environment of the Kissaten allowed people to just slow down and relax for a long time. Maybe there there was something about the environment that helped people meet other people there. Or was it more due to people working at the Kissaten that made conversation with customers?
Sakata: Yeah, I feel like they have a different sense of community. Before, I mean, there are companies, families, and also small communities; it was more balanced. But nowadays, you might be freelance; you might be in your own company. So I think there’s a need for more diverse communities for people living anywhere.
So that’s why even in Tokyo, in the east part of Tokyo, there are lots of young people nowadays, because you are able to feel like there is a type of community; there’s more space to see and explore these communities.
Joey: When we say Shitamachi in the context in Singapore, we say heartlands. So that's where people are more warm. It's a lot more prioritization of relationship over business. Business is also important, but like Kissaten and like Starbucks, they both have similar products (coffee), but the relationship is different. Starbucks is more transaction-based. Kissaten is more like “Hi, meet [this person].” So I think this is this is missing/decreasing.
Sakata: Transaction vs relation.
Joey: One is transactional; the other is very relationship-based. Like, the epitome of Kissaten is the coffee ticket. The wall has these coffee tickets. You don't need to pay. You just come in and you say, ah, same thing as every time. Then I just take the coffee ticket and throw. So it's just very different relationship. Same products but different relationship. Very different.
Sakata: ...quite speedy and if you want to be fast you have to be more transaction.
Joey: Yeah, and for Starbucks, you don't even need to go to the counter anymore. You can order on your phone. You don't even need to talk — just go in, order pick up, and do your work. Bye bye. It's extreme.
Sakata: So I want to make the situation more slow. I mean slowly, slowly. And you know, nowadays slowly is more no, no value. Speed, everything is speed, productive. Scale, productive. So I want to make a kind of different way of style.
But nowadays even in rural area, people think more speed and just, you know, that your company and your home are all done by car and there's no space to think about connecting.
Jen: Can you tell us about collaborations or partnerships you've had with local businesses or artisans? I feel like you have many collaborations. So how do you build these collaborations? Do they come to you? Do you reach out to them? Do you meet and talk about it?
Sakata: There are three things. One is the community, this area, people in this area. The commerce, the commercial side, the businesses.
Okay. I have a partner who works as instructor at a small company. SMEs. Small businesses and personally-owned businesses.
But, at first, it was a group chat.
It's like, we're gonna come here and chat. It's like, it's a start. It just used to be just like, people just stop by to just chat.
"Okay, nice!"
"How about this, to do something new?”
“Do you know anything about this?”
“Or… for that matter, why don't you go try it there?”
"Yeah."
From these chats, you start to sense like that they want to do something, or they're looking for this kind of thing, or these kind of people. And that's when I would say, okay, I’ll just keep that in mind and then can start to find ways to help.
Sakata: It's like Machi Machi is a media, right? But in a real, tangible media. Yeah, neither print nor TV or anything. But it's just real. And brick and mortar media.
Sakata: So in a span of two years! Mino-san said he wants more people moving in and moving into this area.
So I started doing a quick survey of people in the area to ask them whether they want more people to be living in this area. Also asking the people who potentially would want to move into these areas what kind of facilities, what kind of things would they want, what would they look for in the area.
So then we started a small farm, and then people started to work and help out with this farm and then someone who came to help just happened to own this Nikesou place, this property that wasn’t being used, so that became like temporary housing, like a share house of all sorts for people, and then the demand kept growing, so that's why they built out an actual share house, knowing that there will be demand for this house, that people will occupy this house. So that’s what I mean by, like, “reactions.”
Jen: And you're putting the pieces together by connecting the demand with the supply; where somebody has a supply, and there's demand for it, you say “hey, maybe you should work together.” Is that right?
Sakata: We create the environment and the situation. Not only just having this place, but when people come to this place, they are like the bees. They're like the bees and flying around and like going to different plants.
Jen: And then telling each other about them.
Joey: So Machi Machi creates the space, they offer their hive, they create the space and also the situation, the environment where people can interact and then have these reactions, these collaborations.
Sakata: So on top of the environment, and on top of this creating the situation, they create the opportunity. For example, we do workshops, but we don't just do workshops where they say “okay, anyone can participate.” We very deliberately choose people who are already about to do something or are already doing stuff to put them into this workshop so that there is some kind of like collaboration will come out of it. Because otherwise, if you just have people just participate, it would just end as a workshop. So these situations that we make are very deliberate.
The early stages are the most important. The research, and also making sure that you deliberately select people. The selection of the people is also very important, because if you finish this part, things will just start running on their own.
So that was a very local-community kind of example, but you can then do the same thing for corporations, for government, for SMEs. You know, they'll come and then they'll say we want to do something like this… and then perhaps they could do a workshop and then we get different kinds of people there. And then, you know, they just start running — they just work on different projects together.
So there are two things. One, for corporations — a lot of the people who run corporations are getting older. So they are not used to asking for help.
So in a way, Machi-Machi or I would be the cushion, would be the person that they can discuss things with, and then, you know, in a way connect them, so that things get moving.
Second — Why is it that I work on this? Because there are fewer and fewer people in Japan now. So we really need to do things with what we have and with the people we have.
Instead of just like doing, just working, we need to really get creative together. So these kind of reactions, these kind of like collaborations are getting much more important. As a kind of like accelerator in a way, it just accelerates people's reactions and collaborations.
Jen: Can I ask what is it that makes you effective as that medium between the corporations and whoever else is coming up with the new ideas?
Sakata: So the thing that's the most important at this initial phase is that these companies that come to Machi Machi and talk to me. Although some of them belong to the same companies, their relationships might be dysfunctional.
So what I really emphasize is to build the relationship of every single person as a single stakeholder, regardless of the position that they’re in — in a very flat structure, as individuals first — so that we can do our magic.
If I just did that, let's say the first time the company comes and then I start to build a relationship with every single person in it, then if it's within this bubble, it just becomes a typical consulting kind of business. So then the most important part is that I have very flat-level friendships with all sorts of different people in this region. So this part is also very important. With these relationships, I can very casually and very naturally mix people, mix the right elements together. So I think having this preparation of having natural relationships from the start is very, very helpful.
Jen: So maybe it helps to very intentionally and carefully combine the right people in an environment like this where it's not in their own corporation, it's devoid of any sort of hierarchical structure, and put them in a place where individuals can just come up with ideas a little bit more naturally. Is that right?
Sakata: Because a lot of these corporations are in a rush, they want things quick. So I think the thing that we deliberately try to do is to create an environment that allows people to slow down a little bit. So I think like for example the music, the lighting, this is just my, what I think, but the music, it doesn't encourage like speed at all. So these things are important to help people slow down.
Jen: I want to ask more about those details if possible. What about the environment encourages people to slow down? Is it the sense of space? Is it that they can wander around? Is it that they can just order one thing? Is it music and the lighting?
Joey: Yes; the music, the amount of space that's available, the fact that you don't have to order anything when you want to come. But more than that, the “software,” the people, like Sakata-san and Asako-san are not “chop-chop” business. They're very deliberate about it — very deliberate about getting to know people, and relationships come first.
Sakata: We have this kind of general culture here where we kind of embrace imperfection. Like, if we really strive for perfection then lunch service will come out really quickly. You'll get to know your menus in advance. You get to pay quickly, you know, and get high turnover and everything. But, in a good way, we don't care as much about that. Sometimes we have to deal with other things. Sometimes we will forget to serve something. To just embrace imperfection, it would stay in a good way.
And they create an environment where this is forgiven. It's like, of course, everyone makes mistakes, but it's really how you deal with these mistakes or imperfections that really determines the culture of places, because everyone sees it. If someone's getting scolded or shouted at or something, then it creates a very, very heavy kind of tone.
Joey: It's a fine line, right? Just then, can we accept imperfection? It's like food poisoning, that's not acceptable. But forgiving small mistakes, that gives people the confidence. Maybe people feel they can also try things because imperfection can be forgiven. So it makes it easier to try for people to want to try.
Jen: And I imagine that kind of feeds into the environment where things are more casual and people may be more open-minded. They can slow down, not just speedily getting from place to place, but also mentally — enough to be able to collaborate and have ideas and calm down an environment like this.
Also, not just for the people who are visiting, but also small businesses, also the people who work here and are doing the pop-ups. It feels a little bit like there’s less pressure to be perfect all the time. But yeah with a good balance, of course.
“This place means different things to different people. And that’s the beauty of it because people with different values will come.”
Can you describe a typical day at Machi Machi? I've only seen maybe a handful of days, maybe four or five days, here.
Sakata: There's no really typical day, but something that I’ve been seeing recently is high school students have been just coming naturally. So I don’t really go and tell them, this is a space for A, B, and C. They just come naturally. Sometimes they just buy them a donut or something. And then at the same time, people come here for lunch downstairs and also sometimes like mothers and people are doing a dance class here. And it's just always lots of activities going on.
I deliberately make sure that this place doesn't have any clear single agenda. We don’t say things like “this is the place where we do A, B and C.” This place means different things to different people. And that's the beauty of it because people with different values will come. Yeah, so sometimes you might have housewives but also have like a business seminar and also high school students coming in. And also just people from different kinds of diverse backgrounds will come and then, if necessary or if I think of a fit, I will start to mix them.
Jen: If you see your place evolving at all in the future, or if there are any changes that you think would be good for it, how do you see it changing? Or, in what ways would you want it to change with time?
Sakata: So there are two things. One is: there are wooden pigeon hole bookshelves downstairs. There was originally an art display in it. I’m starting to rent each pigeon hole space out for people to put their books for ￥2000 per month so that visitors can tell by the books that the person reads whether you connect with them or whether you want to get to know them. I’m interested in what people think of it and if people are interested in it.
So I want to do things like this, that's one. And the second thing is I want to progressively create schemes where I can involve the community. And where whatever money or value that you generate can be reinvested into this region. So I hasn't said anything in particular, but I think that's the kind of direction that I’ve always been thinking from the start.
So there's like a bank, like a trust bank, where they loan up money at very low interest rates. And also they have like a Chamber of Commerce, like small areas, like Kyotango will have a Chamber of Commerce where business people will always gather and then they do business together. But these are very old schemes, these are very old structures. So I’m thinking, what are more modern, more updated types of structures? Like could we pool money together that we can allow people to manage?
But of course in the corporate world, that would be, what do you call it? That would be these big funds or loans. But more focused on like really investing in these areas. So let's say for example, if we pool money, then maybe we can invest in a small business, or we can invest in people who are gonna do good things for this region.
So yeah, we can create a bank and maybe we loan money or we invest, but it's not so much about the financial returns that we’re looking for. It's more for supporting people who are already creating their own communities. So you pump more money into that so that they can have a slightly bigger facility, slightly more people gather, and then that creates communities, and then that kind of fosters the ecosystem. And once you have that ecosystem, more people start to come, and then even more people come. They get more money, that money comes back, and then more people also come to Machi-Machi. So we're kind of looking for an ecosystem effect.
Jen: I hope it happens. I look forward to it. One more question if you have time.
If you have any advice for people who are trying to make a third place in the countryside, please share it.
Sakata: So how long are they willing to invest their time, because they need to be here? Because it's not a one or two year and you make it big kind of thing; that's not the kind of like the way this works. So they need to be here for a decade or two at least. And then what are their motivations for doing this? Because it’s not something that clearly makes a lot of money. So it's also important to clarify what they want to get out of it. So now they've built, they foster the community. And then it also would be great if you can have your own idea to branch out from this. Like for me, say it's like a community bank or other things.
It's really important where the motivation lies. For us, I got to say it's creating a kind of heartland that is now disappearing. Just that warm, Shotengai vibe is my motivation. So as long as I can get there, I think I will be happy. So: really determining your own happiness and what you want to get out of this.
Jen: Thank you so much. It was so interesting. I hope I continue to see Machi Machi succeed. Thank you for creating it.
Sakata: Thank you very much.
Note: the transcription of this interview has been edited for brevity.
Credits
Interviewer: Jen Wu
Interviewee: Makoto Sakata
Interpreter: Joey Ho Nihei
Video and Images: Machi Machi crowdfunding page
Fun facts
Machi Machi hosts an event on the 15th of every month called いちご会 — (ichigo kai), a play on the concept 「一期一会」 (ichi-go ichi-e), or treasuring the once-in-a-lifetime occurrence of meeting another person. Attendees bring food to share, or pay ￥500 ($3.33), and everyone eats dinner together.
There is a bookshelf in the back of the 1st floor where people can rent out a shelf (as Sakata-san mentioned in the interview). You can put your favorite books in there, along with your notes and a short self-introduction, and visitors can look through the books.
The architecture firm which helped build Machi Machi, U設計室, is quite booked out with projects, but one of the architects from the firm holds "Visiting U Design Office" hours at Machi Machi one afternoon each week so that people can feel welcome to come by for inquiries about architecture, vacant house consultations, and chats.
